[NetBehaviour] DIWO co-curation event Chatlog

[Ruth Catlow]

Hi Everyone,

During the Do It With Others (DIWO) E-Mail-Art co-curation event,  
fruit, crisps and Portugese custard tarts were eaten. The spirit and  
philosophy of DIWO e-mail-art was discussed, work was reviewed,  
technology was wrestled with, objects were moved around HTTP Gallery;  
all accompanied by a steady stream of chat.

The idea was that any of the subscribers to the NetBehaviour list  
could contribute to the curation of the upcoming DIWO exhibition at  
HTTP (which opens this Thursday!) by attending the gallery or joining  
the meeting online. Information about how to join the online event  
was posted to the list an hour beforehand.

For the co-curation event we used a combination of the following  
technologies and services:-
- public IRC (Gabbly.com) (projected on a wall in the gallery)
- streaming audio broadcast (Skype)
- webcam uploading a new image of the gallery to a webpage every 10  
seconds (webcam)

Present in the flesh were the Furtherfield crew, Frederik Lesage and  
James (regular, esteemed DIWO contributor).
Through the afternoon, the online event was visited by eight people.  
Sim, Dion and Tone named themselves and joined the conversation. The  
other numbers remained silent, observing lurkers.

Frederik manned the Public IRC and, as 'DIWOchatbod', documented the  
conversation in the gallery for the benefit of the online curators.  
So what follows is the unexpurgated chatlog of the event. We will  
post a more digestible summary of events shortly.

: )
Ruth
===========================================================

Chatlog Record of the Do It With Others (DIWO) E-Mail-Art co-curation  
event Sunday 25th Feb 2007 2-5pm GMT:	

ruth: ruth is testing this facility now

and here she is again

gabber228: hey

sim gishel: hi

law: hi sim, we'll be getting going in a few minutes

Welcome to Gabbly!

gabber44 has joined.

gabber44 is now marc_g

marc_g: hi there...

Sent at 02:08 pm on Sunday.

gabber719 has joined.

gabber719 is now Dion

marc_g: hi sim :-)

law has left.

law has joined.

DIWOchatbod: hey dion

marc_g: hi dion :-)

Dion: howdy all

marc_g: as you can see our web cam is extremely slow

law: i've just launched the skypecast

DIWOchatbod has left.

DIWOchatbod: is anyone listening to the skypecast?

marc_g: Sim - got your piece in the post...

law: if everyone who joins could mute their mic that'd be great.. please
talk to us through this

Sent at 02:12 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbod has left.

marc_g: can you hear us?

Dion: slow, it's my 56k out here in the countryside that's slow.  
Can't join
in on the skypecast as doesn't function here.

DIWOchatbod has left.

law: ok well we'll have someone communicating as much as possible  
through
this so it should be fine

DIWOchatbod has joined.

Sent at 02:15 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbod: we will start with basic ground rules for the conversation

we'll go through Ruth's email as a starting point

here are the key phases:1 ground rules 2 review of the phases and 3 get
started

unless anyone else ha anything to suggest?

Dion has left.

DIWOchatbod: we seem to be having some skype problems

Dion has joined.

DIWOchatbod: since the start we've had over 600 posts

James suggested ways to organise things.

Sent at 02:21 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbod: he suggested external links

gabber761 has joined.

DIWOchatbod: it would be nice to have all the films and other media
clickable. one issue may be how the attachments will be setup

gabber761 has left.

DIWOchatbod: the main proposal to date is a kind of mailbox

Ruth is setting up one of the presentation pieces

it is the DIWO mailbox

Sent at 02:24 pm on Sunday.

law: i'll communicate while ruth fiddles on her mac

we've got to change the permissions on the diwo inbox which we've  
tried to
export from ruth's machine to the mini mac so it can be projected in the
space

ruth's not sure how to do the permissions on the mac

Sent at 02:27 pm on Sunday.

law: we're figuring out how to configure machines in the space now so we
can communicate and see the mailbox

james is here

!

Sent at 02:29 pm on Sunday.

Dion has left.

DIWOchatbod: we are getting James up to speed on what we are  
currently doing

Dion has joined.

DIWOchatbod: We may use two projectors and set it up differently

Ruth has gone to get the second projector.

gabber10 has joined.

Sent at 02:33 pm on Sunday.

gabber10 has left.

DIWOchatbod: we have lift off of the second projector!

marc_g

DIWOchatbod is now marc_g

Sent at 02:39 pm on Sunday.

Invalid login/password.

marc_g is now DIWOchatbot

DIWOchatbot: w'e're just switching the projector setup in the space

Sent at 02:42 pm on Sunday.

law: we can see our inbox!!

Dion has left.

Sent at 02:45 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbot: we'll just take a 5 min. break and be right back

Sent at 02:48 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbot: we're back

we could project the entire mailbox on the main screen

we could present jpegs and text as they come about...

but we can't present movies or mp3s without clicking on them and
downloading them

a good example is the work by alan

if it was downloading independently, it creates a problem because it  
means
creating an interface for that

tit's probably been designed to be viewed at this siz

could load it into quicktime

you'd have to save it to the harddrive

sim gishel has left.

Sent at 02:56 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbot: you get a good idea of the quality of the image on the
screenby looking at the computer screen

the images are really great

it is a bit better

the lights in the room (some) wil be switched off

the filescould all be saved in a folder and played off of the plyer

it might be best to stick to one application, decide what we will use  
and
stick to it

the problem with windows is the frame

linux wouldn't have that

same problem with MMac

might bot make sense to gather all the things together

it's like saying here's a colleciton of images with no relationship
necessarily

so just leave in the email?

it's kind of nice to look at the inbox

just so much info it might be hard to make understandable

we could have between 5 or 10 categories and just feed them in

people could start to find what they're interested in

we were talking about having a mail art equivaleent. it doesn't have  
to be
a signle work, it could be ten ovies looped

could se themes and those that don't fit go in miscelaneous

people could look into the sections that aren't processed leave them a
choice

gabber739 has joined.

DIWOchatbot: the themes are content based?

gabber739 has left.

DIWOchatbot: James suggested to filter the content through the server in
different streams?

Can you think of an example?

I wasn't sure if you'd have acess. But you could just have a script that
could stream different kinds of attachemetns into different folders

so you could see it all in one lump

the archive at the moment is like that but doesn't have html files

the archive is publicly accessible

James hand't seen the archive

the archive could be made accessible here

what would we use the archive for?

we'd have to copy the links into other sections

it's quite difficult(the archive) to digest

with the mailbox its still more mailart

the archive is maybe valuable but not rigth now

iwe should keep it simple

some of the categories sug.

threads, proposals and instructions, stand alone streams and texts.

ssome of the things presented in the themes don't have to be prsented  
online

text is maybe a bit boring

to resolve the issue of mp3 and mp4 we could just download and  
present on a
seperate screen

we should probably discuss other ways of presenting. not just the  
projection

could be just left in the emails or on monitors

we have otehr things that we want and some might be present twice

one of the problems is that some of them take awya a projector for the
whole show

there are factors that may work: maybe now is the time to start with  
that
and curate the show

maybe calling them categories rather than themes and start with the  
sifting
now we could get a better ideasomething like a monitor might have  
it's own
caategory

we could show a whole category in one monitor

we'll find a way to set it up

we can use thunderbird as the mail client

we can skin it any way... pink and flowery?

possible to download skins

examples of categories:

threads?

its the discussions, exchanges and responses

collaborations and remixes

szpakowski's work is a good example of this latter category

Sent at 03:16 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbot: maybe threads are more time based whereas remixes are not

in remix, teh story is less important

in remixes you have different processes more of a mail related thing

context is important but over the course of the project there wasn't as
much collaboration as expected

less of an agreement than a continual exchange

One of the reasons Clive left was because there wasn't the kind of
collaboration he expected

there wasn't a sort of shared effort

people just didn't want to collaborate

it doesn;'t encourage that kind of col.

not easy to come to a concludion about why that is

we just don't know why that took place

could be an interesting folow up

maybe collaboration isn't the most important aspect but remix,  
mashuop, cut
and paste

poetic terrorism,

generative art stuff that was also good

different levels that were going on ratehr than obvious col.

We never said this was going to be all about col.

not particularly concerned about it

what we've got, like the image at the beginning of the DIWO, is that  
its a
col. that is what they have at hand

using the software they can

what makes that different from other pieces?

that there was an invitation and that it was presented as a mailart  
project

at the start there was just a bombardement

it was really fun

people responded and abbandonned their inhibitions

people did a lot

tappered off but they were still engaged

basically, we've got a lot to feature

what's happened is that it didn't turn out how we wanted or planned but
that probably what we're dealing with and not a bad thing

will be interesting to see the final document

gabber48 has joined.

DIWOchatbot: back to categories: threads is a good cat.

law: hi 48!

DIWOchatbot: do we need sub-cat.

law: please enter your name in the name dialogue and press change

or enter whatever yu want to be called

:)

DIWOchatbot: threads might not be a cat. because: how many pieces  
have not
gone through the process of being threads?

if we're going to show it, it needs to be presented that way.

if it's a conversation its a thread?

no because it needs to be more conccutive

yes, if a correspondance goes on for two weeks, then it is. two mails do
not a thread make

in any presentation document, we need to explain what we mean by things

so discussion, exchange, etc.are sub-threads

it's difficult to get people to get involved

does any one want to contribute to the discussion?

what about digital becomes material?

gabber48 is now tone

DIWOchatbot: is that mainly sim?

a little demo of Sim's work

Sent at 03:29 pm on Sunday.

law: hi tone

feel free to contribute to the convo or just listen :)

DIWOchatbot: should we talk about some of the things that will be made
physical

The little robot could be setup on a plinth

Sent at 03:31 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbot: so the plinth would have a wooden ledge that would allow  
it to
work

how would we document everything?

can we say why marx is being read?

we're not doing concentual or anything

we're definitely having it

how about the sound recordings?

(for the work)

we could get Giles to get the minidisc working and download it on there

send him the files to put on the minidisc

they would be connected through the headphoness

we could also have it on speakers

we're going to have sound... not decided

how do we present the mp3 and quicktime?

it would be nice for it to be presented in the space

so maybe keep marx on the headphones

what about the movies?

if they go on the monitor, then they can have sound on the headphones

would it be good to have all the sound files playing on a loop in the  
space?

could be nice

but how would we be able to discern who's who?

some have submitted a few sound files

Sent at 03:37 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbot: the loop would go for... not certain.... a while

we've decided then that we would show films on the monitor

it's an option

so we will definitely have:

Sim's machine

(we could ask Sim to send us a photo of Karl Marx

)

we could have a picture of a capitalist like Bush under the pen of Sim's
work

we could have a conversation with sim on the list about what would go  
well

we're listening to one of James' submitions

It could sound quite cool having this play in the room

So maybe the sound files are collected and looped

do we loop them in order of submission or in a themed way?

I would think whatever is simplest

James hasen't really heard any of the other sounds

so it's hard to sya

most of Sondheim's are Mp4s

w'ell just integrate it and if people want a copy, they'll have to  
buy the
compilation of the contributions

You could have a track listing of all the different contributions and
that's that

if people want a copy, they buy it

but that might be more than we cn manage

there's no way for people to find out what's playing

if we use the minidisc palyer for sim, we need to play it off of  
something
else

we could have a projection of the sound files and a list so that  
people can
just click and play them

we can always just have the sound played off of the minimac

in hte other room

so we just copy everything on a CD and just play it off the minimac

we can post a track listing but it isn't important to show who is  
playing
whan

let's just do that

so, we'd play everything that's just a sound file

Marc will download all the sound files onto a Cd and play off of the Mac
mini

there are 4 speakers srround sound

Sent at 03:47 pm on Sunday.

tone: just to get serious for a moment, its currently Tottenham 3-1  
Bolton!

DIWOchatbot: The other thing for digital becomes material is the  
works by
Brian

it could be fun to print out on paper and present it

print out every image and then people could just take them but maybe it
would be too much

could have a printer and people select what they want to print

that sounds good

we could have stuff on the wall but if they find stuff they like they  
can
print it

how would they find what they wnt to print

?

So what would the process be?

They would see what they like in the mailbox and then just download what
they like?

Dion has joined.

law: welcome back dion!

DIWOchatbot: so we could just set this uyp with the network printer  
and let
people just print what they like

So we're agreed about the printer?

yes, they look like emails and that's not a problem

it seems that they want to print two pages instead of just one

I guess it depends on the config. We'd have to make some lkind of set  
up to
make sure they don't print out more than what they need

Dion: just poppin' in and out. terrible connection. Perhaps it's  
better I
just sign off and read the thread later. I hope you all are nibbling on
some smarties.

DIWOchatbot: they could just email it to themselves or to someone else.

law: sorry you're having a hard time with the connection

we've got nice crisps and cake.. no smarties I'm afraid

i think we'll probably post the convo to the list

but if you have comments please submit them.. you can email them to the
list while we're doing this and we can try to incorporate them as we go

Sent at 03:55 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbot: so if we have a printer and people can print some things  
out

...

are we thinking of having the mailbox projected where it is now?

I'm just thinking that it would be nice to have it as high as  
possible...
yes, that would be it

tone: Remember: "the easier the better"

DIWOchatbot: it would be setup as it was originallywith the wireless
keyboard and mouse so that people can roam through the mailbox

they could view the works through the mailbox

so there's the spare projector

we need to decide whether we'd project the spakowski movie

we haven't yet seen the champion work

[the wonderhorse floating infornt of a wind turbine]

it's nice that he's been able to make these attachments under 200k

so if we'd have this installation, there'd be some physical aspect to  
the
installation (deck chairs)

the original by Jon and then there is the reply by szpakowsky

Dion: and Michael's old couple watching the series of images roll past
(collab. with whomever submitted that photo:

DIWOchatbot: that what we're looking at now

do you think it's worthy of a whole projector?

gabber218 has joined.

law: hi 218

feel free to type your name in the dialogue and hit change to identify
yourself

Dion: super piece alone. maybe ask if he wants to lengthen in or loop it

law: and then listen/chat as you wish :)

i would think he'd be happy to loop it

as he loops most things :)

we're talking about printing thompsons originial image

A2 format and post it on the wall

and then project michael's loop next to it

to show the collaboration

Dion: cool.

DIWOchatbot: it really communicates the stream of stuff that's been  
coming
in

if we have the other movies showing on the monitor then we don't have to
worry about the projector taking up this one piece

it's legitimate to have the sound files playing on a loop but there  
are a
lot of movies and we may have to be a little selective of the movies

what are the criteria then?

before settling that, we' should settle the projector

if the monitor plays other things, it may be ok

why do we think this is a good idea? Because there' s the potential  
to get
a good print out and it highlights a prolific contributor and it also is
fun that these net artists are going to be printed out

Is there a high res. version of this?

yes, we have one

wecould project it small and just make it the same size as the image

we could back project it

Dion: Back to viewing the mailbox and printing. Pysically printing and
allowing peopel to take the prints with them, or perhaps collage or  
place
where they want may be a consideration. Also, to offer the works for  
free
and suggest that they can email from

the gallery to themselves or whomever

DIWOchatbot: Ruth imagined it on the far wall. it might be important to
decide what else will be in before deciding that

that's exactly what we were talking about although we hadn't thought  
about
letting people place the print outs

but it may be better to have works already on the wall

Dion: it could get messy

DIWOchatbot: in terms of physical space: if there are long threads... we
could print them in a scroll

tone: "they can email to themselves" - now you're talkin!

DIWOchatbot: grreat! That's good

gabber218 has left.

DIWOchatbot: and to friends too

gabber670 has joined.

Dion: yes, but from a netbehavior or http: mail account

law: hi 670

!

yep that's the idea

DIWOchatbot: the threads could just be in a scroll on the wall, there  
could
be 4 or 5 of them

law: 670, feel free to replace the gabber name with your own and join  
in as
you wish!

gabber670 has left.

DIWOchatbot: what would be works that were posted to Ruth and Marc but
weren't on the list?

what do you all think about letting works by Heath and Andy
that were submitted directly ro Ruth and MArc

should they be included?

How do we decide what is an appropriate thread.?

tone: you won't believe this, but Robbie Kean's been sent off!!

DIWOchatbot: Ruth will just pick a few and send them out to people

Dion: on the tech and specs. page, 2 projectors are among the list. I  
think
you should use every available computer, monitor, tv and projector. get
that place humming and sounding like a bit computer multi-media machine

DIWOchatbot: to see what they think

law: we plan to use the second projector for the mailbox where people  
can
print etc

and a monitor w a selection of films

DIWOchatbot: we should maybe ask him to submit it in a smaller format on
the list

Dion: hey, you all aren't looking at michael's movie, you're watching a
football match projected on the gallery wall!

law: and all the sound files playing in the space

DIWOchatbot: quite a few things are just posted as a URL so that  
might be a
way to get around the size limitations

law: we're actually watching YOU talk to us!!

DIWOchatbot: There's nothing to stop us from posting it to the list
ourselves

Andy asked not to post publicly because he doesn't want to get dumped on
for it

he's being penalised because he's political

but he's not really limited in terms of exposure already

if it isn't falling within the remit of the mail project then it isn't
really related

Dion: no penalties, no deadlines

DIWOchatbot: what do you mean by that?

is it that no one should be excluded no matter what?

You should just talk to him to see what could be arranged

what about heath?

well then if he can't be bothered, it isn't worth it

Dion: if their intent is to communicate their art but are intimidated  
they
should be encouraged

DIWOchatbot: we should have conversations with people to explain how  
things
are setup and make them understand the format

law: i dont think they're intimitaed

one couldnt be bothered to subscribe to the list

bc he didnt want an inbox-full

the other felt politically vulnerable

bc of the content of the work

DIWOchatbot: we'll send heath and andy a URL to the ten minute  
subscription
so that they can post what they want

Dion: right, that is their problem

tone: "get that place humming and sounding like a bit computer multi- 
media
machine." Fair enough, but out of that chaos it would be great if you  
could
offer some CLARITY, some over-arching, organising PRINCIPLE.

law: we've been discussing categories

categories that will show up in hte mailbox and in physical  
manifestations
in the gallery

any ideas of what that principle might be?

tone: the question is what is the ESSENCE of this activity?

DIWOchatbot: there are two main things that need to be sorted out: where
sim's work will go and the general physical placing of everything

law: what do you htink?

DIWOchatbot: and what the other categories are likely to be

Sent at 04:30 pm on Sunday.

Dion: sure, categorize. you've got the music/sound covered. video,  
play it
al or select and mix. maybe even play it back the whold DIWO thread as
screenshots of the whole interaction

DIWOchatbot: Here are the categories we're at:digital becomes physical
(brian netart guy currency, neil's and sim's thing)

threads

law: we've got all the emails visible as emails

DIWOchatbot: generative/machine art

(that's three)

stand alone streams

and finally texts

Dion: I've got to run. cheers and best

law: thanks!!!!!

Dion: thank y'all. chow, by

Dion has left.

Sent at 04:33 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbot: we're going to take a quick break

brb

Sent at 04:35 pm on Sunday.

marc_g has left.

tone: What lies at the heart of this process? What are people are  
doing (or
not doing) with these new tools? The show should address these  
questions.
But first YOU need to.

Sent at 04:39 pm on Sunday.

gabber918 has joined.

DIWOchatbot: in what way should we address this?

Sent at 04:41 pm on Sunday.

tone: the way you organise the show will be one way, but if you're  
thinking
is muddled so will be the show..

DIWOchatbot: do you get the impression that the thinking is muddled?

Sent at 04:43 pm on Sunday.

tone: what do you think is the ESSENCE of this activity?

DIWOchatbot: seems to me to be the DIWO project and its resulting  
works...
no?

law: hi 918

feel free to join in as you wish :)

Sent at 04:45 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbot: we're getting started again

tone: have you thought about DISTANCE as a distinguishing feature?

DIWOchatbot: it's a mailart show so distance is always part of the  
medium
for mailart

but with networks we have immediacy

tone: How can you reflect that in the presentation?

DIWOchatbot: how would you suggest we reflect that in the presentation?

tone: 2 processes

DIWOchatbot: ok

tone: empasise that

DIWOchatbot: do you mean mailart and immediacy?

tone: theres a tension, a creative tension inb that?

DIWOchatbot: we're going to have two parrallel conversations

law: what's the tension?

tone: separation and togetherness

law: indeed

tone: separation and togetherness

DIWOchatbot: in the case of texts, we have a few things that may be  
context
texts... we could call it textual dialogue

that opens it up

so textual dialogue will be the last category

law: i think those things will be reflected by the categories... threads
for example are an example of togetherness across separation,  
asynchronous
collaboriation

DIWOchatbot: the last thing to do in terms of the list is the  
space... and
the print-outs

there are going to be double ups so we might as well print out things  
that
look interesting

gabber918 has left.

DIWOchatbot: there are things that come in clusters... how do we deal  
with
them?

we could just print various things and have them in a grid

Would some of them be large format? or just prin out in many multiples

A lot of it should be quite small so that we would need to walk up to it

no cropping

lots of postcard style

very mailart style

That's a lot of cropping though

we'd have to print them out and crop them out

a concern is that it might start to look really tacky

in a way it might be better to put them on a proper flat surface

or it may be better to have fewer and larger images

we could print them out in folders and people would leaf through

but people are doing that already online

we don't want people to say there aren't enough examples of the work

we could just have one big role of paper on the wall with a print out of
many images

we could have all types of images on a big role

but that would mean some designing, it would have to be slicker than  
just
printing them out anbd posting them in a certain way

it might be nice to just pin them up ... just loads of images

we'd just have to crop them

keep the images in the same size it would make a nice movement around  
the
room

are we going to select images somehow or just do it indiscriminately

?

there are a lot of image files

tone: keep things as simple as poss

DIWOchatbot: Marc doesn't mind going through some of those

would you have a suggestion for how to make the selection?

instead of wasting a bunch of paper, it might be a good idea to sopy and
paste them into a file in advance so that it is not full of white space

another question is how to select the movies and show them on the  
monitor

the main questions of curating the images and movies need to be settled
before the end of the discussion

there's a lot that sondheim has submitted, do we want to post all of it?

there may be a need to give priority to those that submitted to DIWO
instead of just netbehaviour

maybe just the ones that have DIWO in the subject lines?

Some conciously submitted to netbehaviour instead of DIWO

they didn't aknowledge the difference between the two

in the time that we've got, we won't really have time to go through
everything

we've also got to look through the archives or jsut through the links

so we'd have to go through the whole thing

Sent at 05:05 pm on Sunday.

DIWOchatbot: Are there anyone that we could ask to select the movies?

How many movies do we want in total?

it would take a while but it would be better than starting from  
scratch and
not having to go through everything from the beginning.

gabber783 has joined.

DIWOchatbot: Maybe we decide now about 40 or something

the only problem is the DVD burning hat we need to do

It would be best to have everything formatted by Thursday

tone: have to go - peace!

law: thanks tone!!!

appreciate your contributing

tone has left.

law: hi 783

feel free to join in as you wish

DIWOchatbot: WE'd need it by Tuesday night to be comfortable

we'' l just bunr them on CDs
=================================================